For the Whole World...No

"Jesus Christ, our savior. Who is the propitiation, the satisfaction if you would, for our sins and not just for our sins but for the sins of the whole world." Is this true? I found this error while listening to this song I have on the sidebar, and I thought, "Is this true? For the sins of the whole world?" The answer is no. He didn't. If this were true than everyone's a Christian! Christ only died to pay for the sins of those who would repent and believe in Him. Everyone else is under judgment. I just wanted to make this clear for you. This was the mistake that I metioned if you came from the Rebelution.

For His Son's Glory,
-Kole

32 comments:

Margaret Neufeld June 17, 2008 at 7:54 AM  
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Margaret Neufeld June 17, 2008 at 9:05 AM  
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Ryan Burton King June 17, 2008 at 10:28 AM  

You are not wrong Kole. There is no universal atonement. The verses quoted above are taken completely out of context and the comments themselves lean toward universalism. John is not saying he died for the sins of all of the people of the world. John is writing to Jews, many of whom believed that Jesus died for them alone. He is explaining that its not just people who are Jews whom Jesus came to save, but also Gentiles. Not just those of the Jewish world but people of the whole world, Jew or Gentile, whom he had forordained to be saved. In John 11:51-52, we are told "He prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." Paul is saying the same thing. Also see Rev. 5:9, John 17:6,9,19, and Romans 8:32

Nicole K. June 17, 2008 at 11:26 AM  

Hey,

In a way, you are both correct--it kind of goes together. Christ did die for the whole world, in the sense that He died for anyone and everyone in the whole world who chooses to accept Him.
Make sense?

I think it is good to talk about these things and really pick it apart. :)

Nicole (L) K.

Margaret Neufeld June 17, 2008 at 12:08 PM  

Sorry guys, maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. I'll delete those comments. I don't want to argue with anyone or offend anyone.

Ryan: I had to look up universalism. I did add in my first comment that I could be wrong just as well.

Life Savior June 17, 2008 at 12:59 PM  

Hey guys, I thought something might come up. That I took from the song but it is actualy from 1John 2:2. And it says it in just about those exact words. However, I like how John Piper said it, and the cross reference to John 11:52 and it's talking about the nation of Isreal, and saying that not only did he die of them but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. Others think it the verse means that it is great enough for the whole world. It's debatable.

-Kole

P.S. Are you allowed to delete your own comments?

Meshaay June 17, 2008 at 2:55 PM  

Are you sure about this? When it said how He's the propitiation for our sins and the whole world's,doesn't that simply mean the price has been paid for anyone and everyone? It's like Jesus is the ticket to a concert and everyone has been offered Him for free. What they do with Him is their own choice. Some will take Him to the concert, others won't go at all, and some will try to get in without Him. But that doesn't change the fact that the price has already been paid for anyone and everyone to get in. All any person has to do is believe in Him.

Everyone can be saved and become a Christian; not everyone will be.

Life Savior June 17, 2008 at 3:30 PM  

But if the price has been paid for everyone why do people go to hell?

-Kole

Nicole K. June 17, 2008 at 3:55 PM  

John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not comdemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

People go to hell because they chose to not accept Christ, who paid the price so we don't have to go to hell. Just like rice is pretty much available to the whole world, Christ is also available to the whole world. Even if it is available, some people don't buy rice. Some people don't accept Crist.
Does this help?

Nicole K.

P.S. Yes, I believe you can delete your own comments.

Life Savior June 17, 2008 at 4:51 PM  

I asked that last question because, IF (ifisis on IF) everyones' sins were paid for but they didn't believe (unbelief is a sin), then everyone would still go to heaven beacuse their unbelief would have been paid for. It goes around in a circle. Now matter what you did you would go to heaven.

Ryan: I didn't get to the end of your comment before I commented and I didn't relize that you had already said that same verse erlier. I can see we're on the same page here.

-Kole

Life Savior June 17, 2008 at 4:53 PM  

that's supposed to be "infisis" or how ever you spell that!

-Kole

Josh Nunley June 17, 2008 at 5:07 PM  

Ok, I read the past few comments. I just wanna add one thing, we don't choose God, He chooses us, so the "whole world" is refering to the people He chose before time.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Life Savior June 17, 2008 at 5:14 PM  

Josh: Read Ryan's post. It may help.

-Kole

Josh Nunley June 17, 2008 at 5:58 PM  

i wish there was an edit button on your comments instead of just a trash button....

Meshaay June 18, 2008 at 2:10 AM  

Kole: Their unbelief is paid for (so that they can choose to believe and become a Christian), but they still have to acknowledge, accept, believe that. If they don't, then they go to hell.
"Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

"For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved."(Romans 10:9,13 Amp)

Yes, God has chosen who will come to Him, but only He knows who those will be. We still have to go tell everyone we can that He loves them and will receive them if they'll only come.

Ryan Burton King June 18, 2008 at 2:19 AM  

As Charles Haddon Spurgeon put it, we have the responsibility to repent but are incapable of doing so. We do not and cannot choose God. We are dead in our tresspasses and sins. Dead people don't make decisions. Rather we have been called by God. We didn't even choose to follow God when he called, but the Holy Spirit was already working in us, bringing us, leading us to God, and molding us to do his will. Jesus says in John 15:16, "You did not choose me but I chose you..." Paul begins in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 "Consider your calling..." and closes by saying "He, is the source of your life in Christ Jesus... Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." When we say we chose God we are boasting in ourselves, not in God's power to save.

Nicole K. June 18, 2008 at 6:46 AM  

I agree with Meshaay and Ryan. Well said. (Don't feel bad, Kole, it is great to have things open for discussion, for, as we all have seen, there is always more than one way to look at things, and I think it is important that we take the time to fully understand it!) :)

-Nicole

P.S. I believe you meant: emphasis :-)

Meshaay June 18, 2008 at 9:00 AM  
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Meshaay June 18, 2008 at 9:01 AM  
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Meshaay June 18, 2008 at 9:30 AM  
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Meshaay June 18, 2008 at 9:33 AM  

I think we should ask the Lord to make clear to each of us what He thinks.

Meshaay

Life Savior June 18, 2008 at 2:13 PM  

I agree with all of you for the most part.

Meshaay: I agree that we need to witness to everyone we meet. It's not like people have a giant E floating over their heads if they are one of God's elect. I think your getting my position wrong though. I am on your side, but I was offering another alturnitive.

Ryan: I am with you also. That's what the T in T.U.L.I.P is for. Total depravity!! meaning I can do nothing good! I am spiritually dead! And we recived from Christ the effectual calling that calls us to him! Yea!!

Nicole K: I don't believe in the point I was talking about (when I said IF). I was simply asking questions to refute later on. I didn't mean that I was for it. I don't believe in a universal atonement.

Meshaay: your last comment I would like to address. Do you mean that we should ask to reveal to us his meaning?

I just want people to know that I don't support that theory I was talking about. The point is that God will call those who are his with a effectual calling, and that we cannot deny. People God has not called or will not call are spiritual dead and cannot do anything. But we need to witness to everyone because we have no clue who God's elect are.

-Kole

Anonymous June 18, 2008 at 2:39 PM  

Kole,

You said:

"I was offering another alturnitive (sp)."

"I don't believe in the point I was talking about"

"I just want people to know that I don't support that theory I was talking about."

In your original post you sounded like John Calvin, but now, more like John Kerry ("I voted for the TULIP before I voted against the TULIP").

However, I realize now that maybe my confusion lies in the fact that you are now referring to just your comments about universalism and not to your original post.

Life Savior June 18, 2008 at 2:52 PM  

It has kind of gone off topic. I'm sorry I seemed two-faced. I was trying to refute meshaay's first comment, by going along with it and showing where it would lead to. The problem is that this is a impossible situation, but the fact is God didn't pay for everyones' sins. But yes I am only refering to the comments. I geuss I better not go along with someone else's thought and just refute it at the beginning. I would suggest for you to read all my comments and try to see what track I was going on if that's possible!

-Kole

P.S. You wouldn't happen to be BL would you? ;)

Life Savior June 18, 2008 at 3:11 PM  

I meant to state my postion in my first comment, and I don't take that back. But when Meshaay asked about universal atonement I asked the question "why were people still going to hell then?", and when I put the emphasis on if I simply meant "if this were true what your saying". I was not trying to support her conculsion in any way.

I hope this all clears up and I can be John Calvin agian! ;)

-Kole

Penn Tomassetti June 18, 2008 at 7:27 PM  

Kole,

I think the best way to explain it is to say, Christ died for everyone who truly believes without exception. I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud when I read that you thought the song was misquoting Scripture. :)

John 2:2 is a hard Scripture to interpret when we believe in Particular Atonement. But when you take it in context with much of what the Bible says about exactly who Jesus died for, it is His sheep, His people, the children of God scattered abroad, those the Father has given Him, believers, etc.

The best way to say it is probably still like this, Christ died for you if you believe (trust, rely on) Him alone as the atonement for all your sin.

God bless.

P.S. Also remember that true theology is more about a Person and less about the points (5 points).
Grace and peace.

Meshaay June 19, 2008 at 2:27 AM  

Kole: Yes that's what I meant.

Nicole K. June 19, 2008 at 7:56 AM  

Kole:

I do understand what you were trying to get to...I know you don't agree with that point...I'm not for universal atonemnet either...:)

I think we are finally on the same page, bro!

-Nicole

Life Savior June 19, 2008 at 12:16 PM  

I'm just going to be quit talking and let you guys do the talking for me for now on!

Thanks Penn! After I posted my dad had told me that that line was from scripture but the verse was highly misused. I like what you said about theology being less about five points!

-Kole

Life Savior June 19, 2008 at 4:45 PM  

Wow.



~Kade

Anonymous June 20, 2008 at 12:36 AM  

OK. Now that we understand what Kole's thoughts are, I'm confused about what Meshaay believes.

Meshaay June 20, 2008 at 1:40 AM  

I've been thinking about it and praying about it. I think something in my mind may be changing, but I wont say anything yet. Maybe I just got hyper over phraseology or something... :-)

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